David—You didn’t not the “kinda?”  The point isn’t that this is equivalent or anything. The point—a minor one, given that the point of the post was really to share Lar’s Sutton piece—is that folks in baseball tend not to be straight up when it comes to cheating, no matter its nature.

Calcaterra,

Wait….you’re saying that pitchers in baseball have scoffed the ball?!?!?  This is breaking news, dude; you should write a book!

Next thing you’re going to tell me that hitters have corked their bats or baserunners have stolen signs! 

There’s zero connection between what Sutton, Kaat, Niekro, Moehler, etc., etc., etc. have done and the accusations of conspiracy to fix games - which is exactly what pitch-tipping would amount to. 

Stop groping for analogies and connections.  It was a pointless non-sequitur. 

Also….“Didn’t not the ‘kinda’”.  What the hell is that?

@ David

it’s “didn’t note the kinda”, it’s a typo so relax.

There’s zero connection between what Sutton, Kaat, Niekro, Moehler, etc., etc., etc. have done and the accusations of conspiracy to fix games - which is exactly what pitch-tipping would amount to.

How is using an illegal pitch not “fixing” a game?  Both, scuffing a baseball and ‘pitch tipping,’ are illegal actions done to change the outcome of the game.  As it’s said in Major League

Rick Vaughn: [Seeing Harris take off his shirt, revealing white suff on his chest] What’s that #### on your chest?
Eddie Harris: [Looking at his chest] Crisco.
Eddie Harris: [wiping it across his head]
Eddie Harris: Bardol.
Eddie Harris: [wiping it along his waist line]
Eddie Harris: Vagisil. Any one of them will give you another two to three inches drop on your curve ball. Of course if the umps are watching me real close I’ll rub a little jalapeo up my nose, get it runnin’, and if I need to load the ball up I just…
Eddie Harris: [wipes his nose]
Eddie Harris: ...wipe my nose.
Rick Vaughn: You put snot on the ball?
Eddie Harris: I haven’t got an arm like you, kid. I have to put anything on it I can find. Someday you will too.

Well, David, I actually explicitly stated that I didn’t want to compare this to A-Rod’s pitch-tipping situation since “I’m afraid that it’ll look too much like I’m trying to condone or excuse away some anti-competitive behavior from A-Rod”.

I just thought it was an interesting story, and one that needs to be considered amongst the greater “cheating in baseball” hysteria that people have gotten so worked up about in the past few years. I also thought it did a good job of showing exactly what Rob Neyer was talking about when he said:

“I’m not near my books, so I can’t offer an examples. But the oral histories are loaded with examples of pitch-tipping. Usually it’s the catcher telling the batter what’s coming next—just like in Bull Durham—but sometimes it’s the pitcher telling the batter, and I don’t suppose that A-Rod would be the first fielder to tip the batter, either. Usually it’s a favor to the batter—to get him out of a slump, or help him hit his 500th home run, or whatever—with no expected reciprocation.

It’s all one of a piece, though. And when it’s an old story, everyone smiles and laughs and finds it all just so amusing. When it’s Alex Rodriguez, we ask the Commissioner what’s going to be done about it. I actually lean toward doing something about it—again, if you can prove it—but once again I’m struck by the double-standard.”

(which I also put into the article… you can see more of what Neyer was talking about - and some pitch tipping between Denny McLain and Mickey Mantle - in this other piece by Neyer)

You can believe all you want about how terrible these allegations are, if true, but there’s still a conversation to be had about what the true culture of “cheating” is in baseball (and if Mantle can be involved in something so dastardly as a “conspriacy to fix games”, then there’s probably a pretty good chance that the culture is much more ingrained and deeper and nuanced than any of us outside of the clubhouse will ever know).

Iar,

That’s actually my letter in Rob Neyer’s lame piece there. 

Let me tell you: I think that the Mantle HR - and I’m sure that there were other incidents; I’m not a fool - is an abomination. 

The difference is that that actually happened, whereas Ugly Woman’s claims against A-Rod and his swarm of co-conspirators are all lies.  I’ll say it again: every single second of his time on the field as a Ranger is on video tape from the camera behind the home plate netting.  Further, the announcers, teammates, and others would’ve spotted it.  To the contrary, they’ve all come out and said that it’s “absolute crap”.

But hey, why should we believe A-Rod’s double-play partner when we can believe Ugly Woman: http://durhamwonderland.blogspot.com/

Chevy will always be something less than horrible to me due to the profound amounts of goodwill engendered by “Fletch” and, to a lesser extent, Clark Griswold, but there’s a lot of awful in that body of work. 

I think my appreciation of “My Name is Earl” comes mostly from the Joy character.  I went to high school with a whole lot of girls whom I’m guessing ended up like her.  I even dated one.  And I’m not saying any of that is a bad thing.

David:  you’d probably get more people engaging you if you didn’t insist on ad hominem attacks on people. I have just as much distaste for Roberts as anyone, but calling her Ugly Woman and other people other things along those lines is a great way to keep people from taking your arguments seriously.

Query: if we’re going to bring movies into this (and your objection is noted, David), isn’t Crash telling the batter what Nuke was going to throw on two occasions more on point?

if i read the articles about pitch tipping correctly…wasn’t the idea that ARod was sposed to be alerting fellow infielders to what the pitch/location was…and according to the ‘snitches’...he was doing it so much later than most middle infielders do…that he was effectively and obviously tipping the pitches to the opposing players? 

and

i guess that means that this only happened when certain other teams other middle infielders were the batters.

well…i agree with david.  there’s a lot of tape.  shudn’t be too hard to see a pattern of behavior there if anyone wants to check.

and

seems to me if i were writing a book…after my problems in public with my reporting on the duke lacrosse incident…i’d see if i could take a look at the tapes and see the pattern myself before i published allegations of game fixing.

and

anyone think it might be likely that the un named sources for these allegations may have an axe to grind with the guy who came in and made all the money in the world on what had been their team?

and

well…she isn’t real attractive.  sad, but true.