Again, Tim Kelley’s got a nice post on the second page.

Sure, they make money in the short term off of the Sox and Yanks. Someone before said that we should consider it a strength for MLB that these two teams are strong, and here’s a reason why that’s true.

That can’t, doesn’t, or will never change that the Sox and Yanks and their budgets consign the Rays/Orioles/Jays to the second division barring the exceptional. The Blue Jays did get a cheap skate owner in the late 90s and early 00s, but generally have been a fairly large spender. For their troubles in the past 15 years, they’ve been consigned to the same fate as KC or Pittsburgh, despite having better teams than that on the field (well, I suppose the team’s never really tanked beyond all belief save for that injury filled year 5 or 6 years ago).

Seriously, with the post of the day and the comment here that spurred it…...Has Brittain’s work on Loria/Expos just been forgotten? I wish he were here to join in.

Best regards.

My only point on the Sox aquiring Bay was that he was not strictly bought as a FA.  If Toronto had been willing to part with some of their prospects, couldn’t the Jays have dealt directly with Pittsburgh and not involved another club to complete a three-way trade?  I’m not suggesting that it would have been the smartest move for them, but it was possible, right?  And of course the resources of clubs make a huge difference with respect to potential to contend.  But as it stands now, the Red Sox have the fourth highest payroll in MLB (according to CBSSportsline).  The Mets and Cubs have higher payrolls…so how is it that Philadelphia/Florida and Milwaukee/St. Louis can compete within the NL East and NL Central?  Given the Rays run differential this season, aren’t we classifying them as one-hit wonders a bit prematurely?  Based on the success of Tampa last season (and possibly this season), are we sure much of the blame for Toronto’s demise can’t be laid on Riccardi for never achieving similar success?

Tad,

Yes the Cubs and Mets are high payroll clubs as well, but in the AL East you have *two* behemoths, not just one.  Swap the Yankees for the Nationals and tell me just how great life is going to be for the Braves, Phils, & Marlins…

Part of the reason why Tampa Bay succeeded for at least one year was having had a top three pick in each round of the draft for more than a decade. Longorias, Prices, Crawfords, etc. don’t grow on trees.

I’m hearing in this thread that only 4 of 9 years this decade have the Sox and Yanks made the playoffs together, and the Jays should be waiting for the other down years to compete. But then I hear as well that they should lose and lose big time to accumulate the highest draft picks.

Does Toronto possess similarly talented front office personnel?

Can Toronto afford that personnel? The financial disadvantages extend to the draft & bonuses, international signings, FA GMs (Epstein anyone?), in-house gurus (Bill James), and even additional low level MiLB clubs (Toronto famously reduced its total MiLB clubs for a few years this decade to save cash).

As for Bay, my only point there is that the two behemoths of the AL East are deep pocketed clubs: when a good to great player comes available when a Pittsburgh decides again to sell at a deadline, the Sox can afford to give talent to get them: they’ve spent on the draft. They know they can resign him. They don’t have to fear the sunk cost as much (much more applicable to an Igawa or Dice signing, but still, Bay had had a down year recently before his trade). No one likes to think of their team buying success, but to deny the advantage the Sox and Yanks have is silly. Yes, they are very well run clubs who maximize that leverage, but it is an advantage as clear as day. Down to the guys and girls maximizing that leverage, too.

“Part of the reason why Tampa Bay succeeded for at least one year was having had a top three pick in each round of the draft for more than a decade. Longorias, Prices, Crawfords, etc. don’t grow on trees.”

Crawford was taken 52nd overall.  Virtually every team had a shot at him.  That’s the thing, really.  Outside of Longoria, Upton, and Price, everybody else was acquired via a later draft pick, shrewd trades, or budget FA signings.  They hardly have a top-five draft pick manning every position on the team.

“Is there any reason Toronto,
rather than TB, could not enjoy similar success?”

Yes, there is. Toronto is a huge market with a variety of things to do. It also has a fairly weak baseball following to begin with (if you stopped and asked 10 people on the street who two non-Wells position players were, most would keep walking), it’s simply not a baseball town.

That said, a dramatic drop in attendance would kill the Jays, and having a decade of around .400 baseball, while selling and never buying would bury this franchise that has an extremely valuable piece of property in downtown Toronto.

And you think that if Vernon Wells said in a post game press conference “I’ve been stealing signs the last few weeks and we are winning” his fans would begin to boo him?

The fact is, fans view their time and money as an investment in the club. Only the most dedicated fan rarely support a loser for a long period. This is why fans refer to the team they support as “their team” and “us”, or “we”.

That being said, fans have, and always will, want to see a winner.

Sorry, mis-worded my statement. It should have read, “Only the most dedicated fan will support” not “rarely will support”.

Question, when did I state that the Jays have been losers? All along I have said the Jays have been extremely successful, which is one of the reasons why I think JP has done an outstanding job throughout his tenure.

Please refrain from making this argument personal with comments such as “maybe you won’t”. This is a conversation about the Jays and about Jays fans. I am neither a Blue Jay (surprise) nor a Jays fan. I do have a lot of first hand experience with Jays fans as Toronto is the closest big league team to my home town. Through that observation I have seen how little interest the town has in the Jays (go to a Jays game when the Stanley Cup playoffs are on, and attendance is WAY down, go to a bar the night of the NHL draft, and there isn’t a Jays game on a single television).

Jack, I’m talking about 75% of “baseball fans” in Toronto. The ones who show up when the Sox or Yanks are in town. Not the small percentage that make the road trips down to Comerica or the Prog. These are the sports fans in Toronto that really could care less unless there is a big ticket event.

I’m confused.  Which is it?  Toronto doesn’t have enough money to compete with Red Sox/Yankees, or is it that Toronto doesn’t suck enough to get good draft picks a la Tampa Bay?  As mentioned above, not getting the very top draft position(s) can hardly be an excuse/reason for poor drafting.  Either way, I’m still unconvinced that a shrewd front office couldn’t make up for either.  TB has the money to craft a good baseball ops department, why not Toronto?